Interview: E., Feb. 4, 2001, 17:30 to 17:55 PST

T: E, let's talk about the American dream. (.) I'm part of a research team that is researching how the idea of quote (.) the American dream (.) unquote (.) has evolved over time. For example, how has it evolved in terms of how we earn and spend money, how we regard family life, how we work and how we play. (.) I'll ask you a few questions about that, okay?

E: Okay hon. .hhh

T: When you first heard the term the American dream, describe what it meant to you.

E: A::h ... we::ll I prolly heard it on the television I bet. (.3) Yeah, one of those old movies or sumthin'? (.5)

T: Yeah?

E: I dunno maybe I thought (.2) ya know, I think it was a long time ago (.) .hhh hard to remember so far back (.2) [it=

T: [yeah

E: =seems I was always so busy with sumthin, so I prolly only just heard it once or twice, on the TV.

T: uh-huh

E: Oh I guess I see it like a big house, lotsa kids, big family, lots of good things to eat and lots (.) of (.) *money* [HH.

T: [HH.

E: Mmm-hmmm [note: affirmation]. Yeah, there'd be the idea that if ya( ) had a lot of money you could get your dream, but it's not always like that for black folk ya know, (.) .hhh 'specially back then, it was hard to have 'nuff food for all the kids (.4) hhhh But sometimes we would talk about our dreams (.2) a:h yeah yeah, I guess everybody has 'em and so did we. Yeah, a:h, I thought about how nice it would be to git married and have kids and have a nice house (.), and a handsome husband HH, and live close to my folks and friends from school (.2), but it didn't turn out that way mm-mmm mm-mmm [note: negation]. Nope, Daddy [note: E's pet name for her husband] had to go and move us all to California and there went my dream! HH yeah, we all came here to the desert hh (.2) .hh I was pregnant with V. then, had little ones and big ones runnin' all around, and one on the way. So I guess I had some of the dream, didn't I? HH already startin' on too many kids HH!

T: heh

E: We::ll the American dream, mmm-hmmm, what that was was for white folk, ya know? They could have a dream about what they want and they could get it too, yessir, but for black folk it was all a dream and stayed a dream and still's a dream HHH! (.2) Nice house, lotsa kids yeah, and a good job that pays enough to buy everything ya need (.4) T: Yeah (.2) Tell me more.

E: .hh Ya know what? Back then ya didn't need much, not like now mm-mmm no sir ya didn't need all kinda stuff to keep you happy, just your kids runnin' 'round and a handsome man and they all be fat and happy, that's all. (.) That's all ya needed to make ya smile and feel like ya had it all. (.) ( )don't think I ever heard about no 'merican dream before TV came on, no mm-mmm. And then everybody in the neighborhood had to have a TV, ya know, t'be happy. (.2) It weren't enough anymore just to entertainz ya'self, no you had to get the TV on and then ya'll have sumthin to do, jus' sittin' around and watch white people on the TV be happy HHH (.2) That's what happened ya know, o::h we knew white folks and black folks didn't get along some o' the time but we didn't know it half as bad as when TV came on, and oh my my so many white folks smilin' and laughin' and dancin' on the TV (.) .hhh and complainin' about their sitchee-ations and just look at 'em! Look at 'em there, on the TV, cryin' the blues about what theyz gonna wear to the party, and here'n all's it took to keep the black man happy was food on the table and smilin' children and a big ol' bottle of whiskey HHH. (.4) Sad sad a:::h tsk. They need so much now to keep 'em happy, stealin' if they can't get it. (.2) I dunno, I dunno. (.) .hhh Ya pay for everythin' today with paper money ya see and back thenz I hardly ever saw paper money, it was all coins we had, mm-hmm. That's how 'spensive everythin' is now! (.) Maybe white folks had time to dream but not us, mm-mmm, no time to dream when yer raisin' ten kids on a handful of coins every month. (.4) I started mindin' those rich white folks houses when I was pregnant with J., for a bigger handful of coins. (.) .hhh That's another thing, there weren't no sitchee-ation wherez the wife stayed home with the kids and the man paid for everything - no way could he do that! Woman has to go work too, (.) back then, everybody workin' for a handful of coins. (.2) That's right. All'dis business about the wife stayin' home and doin' her nails (.1) HH I be the one doin' her nails, hon, that's it HH=

T: HH

E:=She stay home cuz she had black folks doin' her chores HH! That be the dream mm-hmmm stay home and have the black folks come clean yer house and mind the children [HH=

T: [HH

E: =( )'merican dream HH (.2) It's a big white dream, that's all i'm sayin'. mm-hmmm HH (.4)

T: In what ways have you realized your American dream?

E: we::ll I had my kids, that's all hhh, and they mostly good kids 'cept for the ones that broke my heart. (.2) I was always workin' and a lot of my friends lost their jobs now and then, but I was always workin' on account of being stubborn and strong. Even when the bad times, i'z still workin, ya know?

T: Yeah

E: .hhh I had my job, that's it, then I knew I could get along even when Daddy was sick. (.2) And he was always sick from drink, all da'time, so it be a good thing I could keep workin' and workin' even when my friends lost their job. (.3) Sometimes they was jealous of me I'm not afraid to say. (.2) .hhh I had a good job with rich white folks who depended on me for rain from heaven above, see what I'm sayin'. (.2) Like your momma, ya know.

T: Yeah hhh

E" I'm proud o' that. Kept workin' all the time, up to when I fell (.) and now I can't work and it's hard, .hhh it's hard for a stubborn woman like me who's always workin' HH (.2) For awhile I just wanted to die, hurt so bad=

T: Oh dear

E: =but here I am, tellin' you my troubles so I guess I'm still good for a minute more HH! (.2) I bought my own house mm-hmmm that's right. (.2) Me a big ugly black woman bought a house and brought food home to the kids when Daddy was sick. (.2) All the coins in *my* hand those days HH!

T: HH

E: (.2) Ya know, put this down, things like that just didn't happen ya know?

T: What things?

E: (.2) Oh, I mean a black woman buying a house, that's it. It just wasn't so back then. Back in the 50s, black women (.2) we::ll most women, even poor white women couldn't buy a house without a man. (.) But I got to buy a house because miz M. [note: the matriarch of the rich family she worked for] signed the papers, that's it. (.2) .hhhh we::ll maybe I didn't buy it all alone but it was just as well, my name was on the deed and that was enough, all my friends jealous of me, that's it. (.2) It was a small house and it was an ugly house but it was mine HH=

T: HH

E: =Me and daddy's house. he dided [sic, note: died] there, ya know, in that house. He loved it so much he just wouldn't leave HH ( )Dided there, all peaceful-like, in his sleep. He loved that house mmm-hmmm. (.4)

T: Yeah

E: It ain't there no mo', because they took over Sun Village jus' like that and turned into a country club. (.) .hhh Imagine that (.) ya jus' wouldn't've seen a white man in all of Sun Village back in those days unless he was takin' a black man to the pokey HH (.2) and now they all hittin' theyz golf balls around the grass all over where the black folks lived HH.

T: HH

E: (.2) They tell me the house burned down though, before they came along, but I think theyz jus' tryin' to make me feel better. (.2) a::h always scared me, the thought of those salesmen comin' along and snoopin' through that ol' house even if it was fallin' apart. (.4)

T: Ah, so-

E: All the kids, we had chalk and we'd mark them growin' on the side of the door, and no matter how much it broke my heart to leave that house, I was comforted by the thought of those chalk marks still bein' there. (.4) I do hope it burnt down, so nobody but us ever touched those marks on that door. (.2) mm-mmm breaks my heart to think. (.2) You know what I'm talkin' 'bout, honey?

T: Yeah, yeah, I do

E: Youze one of da few white people ever set foot in Sun Village, when youze a kid, comin' home with me like you'ze my own little girl, you so precious. (.2) Break my heart, anybody comin' in there and messin' all that up with their bad breath. (.5) I had my own house, that's what I did. Put that down - it's important.

T: I will, I will. (.5) So, in what ways have you not realized your American dream?

E: (.2) Can't say I ever had one really, not like theyz do it on TV, but I guess you could say I had my own house and lotsa kids and a job so I guess I'm one of the lucky ones. (.2) .hhh hhh. But I had a sick husband, sick with drink, and a coupla my kids broke my heart and ended up dead or in jail (.3) ah so that was no part of any dream I had, no sir, to bury my children before i'z dead myself? Or go visit 'em in prison? (.2) mmm-mmm no way did I ever dreamt *that* one up. (.3)

T: So sorry-

E: See, the black man, ya know, he see a big dream all over the place and he can't have it. He can't have it unless he steals it from someone else. That's right. Not enough of the dream to go around, see what I'm sayin'?

T: Yeah

E: Theyz good kids on the inside, but their eyes hypnotized by the TV and the dreams they had - ya look at 'em all sad-lookin' and full of fear when you go to the prison and see 'em, they still hypnotized some of 'em is. (.3) mm-mmm no dream I ever had wherez my kids dead before me or locked up somewherez. .hhh hhh. (.2) Maybe if I coulda been home more ..... But it's too late now to think about that. (.6)

T: One last question, E., okay?

E: 'kay.

T: (.2) .hhh hhh. Is it still possible to have an American dream?

E: (.4) We:ll I suppoze so but ya know what?

T: What?

E: Every time ya get close to it, it gets too big to handle, ya know, (.2) Ya gotta have more more more to have it, (.2) and so ya just get close to it and they say no, no you don't have it, ya gotta have more! (.2) That's it, mmm-hmmm kids today, I feel sorry for 'em, that's all. (.2) The dream's so big, filled with so much junk, cars, TVs, cell phones, computers, all that stuff, so big you can't never really carry any of it around with you and say look I have my dream!

T: yeah

E: Oh I suppoze it's easier now to get a job these days, but that's it. a::h but kids, they look so sad and tired these days, I think they know the dream is over, don't you? (.3) And for black kids they know we never had it anyway unless ya steal it. (.3) We need a new dream, that's it. A dream to hold in your hand, just food on the table, children smilin', that's it, and that's all. (.4)

T: okay-

E: mm-hmm. I'z real tired now so you run along and we'll talk another day, sweet honey. Ya know who loves ya.

T: Love ya too E.